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Author Topic: 2NL @ Prodigy(Read 462 times)
profiltwospd
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« on: September 19, 2011, 07:20:21 PM »

How was this misplayed?


Everleaf $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em - 7 players - View hand 1449887
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

UTG: $0.93
UTG+1: $0.70
MP: $2.84
CO: $6.06
Hero (BTN): $3.96
SB: $2.97
BB: $1.14

CO posts a big blind ($0.02)

Pre Flop: ($0.05) Hero is BTN with 7 7
3 folds, CO checks, Hero calls $0.02, SB calls $0.01, BB checks

Flop: ($0.08) 7 4 T (4 players)
SB checks, BB bets $0.08, CO calls $0.08, Hero raises to $0.30, SB folds, BB raises to $1.12, CO folds, Hero calls $0.82

Turn: ($2.40) Q (2 players)

River: ($2.40) T (2 players)

Final Pot: $2.40
Hero shows 7 7 (a full house, sevens full of tens)
BB shows Q T (a full house, tens full of queens)
BB wins $2.28
(Rake: $0.12)




yes sir that is why it was not working...actually thought about it this morn ...bad day yesterday ..maybe i did not say to much out of the way
« Last Edit: September 21, 2011, 02:25:32 PM by twospd » Logged

Author Topic: 2NL @ Prodigy(Read 462 times)
profilFletch_smf
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« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2011, 07:36:36 PM »

Raise pre. Otherwise nh.
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Author Topic: 2NL @ Prodigy(Read 462 times)
profilJBaker
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« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2011, 07:54:43 PM »

Did you edit out the hand?
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Author Topic: 2NL @ Prodigy(Read 462 times)
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« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2011, 08:22:43 PM »

He put it in Img tags so it was trying to show it as a picture. I fixed that up, but he must have been editing at the same time and has put in a link to the hand on the Hand Converter.
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Author Topic: 2NL @ Prodigy(Read 462 times)
profiltwospd
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« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2011, 02:24:51 PM »

Ok, lets back up.

Check the hand out above. This is very typical of how I have found these games to play. Not only that, but looking right now they are playing at 43% plrs/flop...

My question is?  Is there a cliffs answer to how to deal with this kinda action?
They play loose,I play tighter and try to get maximum value out of my legit hands...Sounds rational but?

Soooooooo much limping that when I have a legit hand and position it seems no amount of raising will make them fold...if they are in for 2cents they will come along for 50cents or basically whatever.

I understand that this should be a GREAT game,but again we all know that most of the time(2/3rds maybe)we miss the flop.
Now what?...they will donk bet right back into you leaving you with basically no move but to fold. Draw dependant of course.
Reraise them with air?...when with 5-6 players seen the flop you know someone has something.

I have about tried all I know to do short of playing 50-100 hands and if cards aren't going my way just stop...I do not like to do this though when I KNOW it is such a good game.

What am I missing?
« Last Edit: September 21, 2011, 02:28:21 PM by twospd » Logged
Author Topic: 2NL @ Prodigy(Read 462 times)
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« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2011, 03:18:42 PM »

Ok, lets back up.

Check the hand out above. This is very typical of how I have found these games to play. Not only that, but looking right now they are playing at 43% plrs/flop...

My question is?  Is there a cliffs answer to how to deal with this kinda action?
They play loose,I play tighter and try to get maximum value out of my legit hands...Sounds rational but?

Soooooooo much limping that when I have a legit hand and position it seems no amount of raising will make them fold...if they are in for 2cents they will come along for 50cents or basically whatever.

I understand that this should be a GREAT game,but again we all know that most of the time(2/3rds maybe)we miss the flop.
Now what?...they will donk bet right back into you leaving you with basically no move but to fold. Draw dependant of course.
Reraise them with air?...when with 5-6 players seen the flop you know someone has something.

I have about tried all I know to do short of playing 50-100 hands and if cards aren't going my way just stop...I do not like to do this though when I KNOW it is such a good game.

What am I missing?


I really don't think playing only super-premium hands is the best way to exploit the super-loose calling stations.

imo make your PFRs a lot smaller in size, and do not over-play one-pair hands (and rarely c-bet BLUFF on the flop). But make sure to play a LOT of flops since you are likely better at post-flop play than the majority of them -- fold your K4o and your A6o but be willing to see a flop with 2 paint, 45+ 46+ and possibly even suited-ATC (or at the very least suited A2 K2 Q9 45+ 46+) ... make sure you have a maximum size stack so with these speculative hands you can call preflop raises (in position, preferably).

On the flop make your continuation-bets a lot smaller than at a "normal" table -- so when you are called by 2+ opponents it doesn't cost you as much (donks seem to fold to a 25%-pot bet just as often as a 75%-pot bet) and wait for the TURN to bet FULL POT FOR VALUE (or check-fold if you still have nothing -- let the SMALL pot go on the turn esp. when it's obvious a donk hit their draw -- but if they call your value-PSB on the turn your TPGK+ is usually the best hand and you can valuetown the river about 75% pot as they will NEVER believe you have something due to your "weak bet" OTF. And if YOU hit your flush or strt then you might even get raised by their 2pair and you can felt the knuckledraggers.


PS: in these types of games, you might have 3+ limpers before you, make your PFR a prretty consistent size no matter how many limpers there are -- perhaps just 2.5bb or 3-3.5bb -- as the TIGHT/solid players might fold after limping while the bad opponents won't fold no matter how much you make your raise. If you really want to be exploitable, make your "Premium Pair" PFR *huge* (whether vs. limpers, or opening) and hope that only the solid opponents notice how obvious you are making it (i.e. they fold their non-premium, but donkeys don't notice Smiley )
« Last Edit: September 21, 2011, 03:21:10 PM by DforDissent » Logged


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Author Topic: 2NL @ Prodigy(Read 462 times)
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« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2011, 03:57:52 PM »

When posting hands for advice don't post what cards come after you're all in and definitely don't post your villains hand. You want feedback on the circumstances not on how the hand played out.

But even in this instance you got it all in with the second nuts and villain had Top Pair, 3rd Kicker. He is crushed. Less than 2% to win from there. The fact this was the one time in 50 that he did actually win it is irrelevant.

Small hand small pot, big hand big pot. You need to bet/raise just enough to do the job. If you're getting lots of callers, then raise a bit smaller with AK type hands but bigger with AA & KK. You need to be aware of the board and how that might have helped your opponent. Don't C Bet with AK when you miss and have 3 callers. You're not going to get them all to fold. If you're HU you can bluff for 1/2 pot knowing that they'll fold with nothing and call if they have you beat. When you actually hit the flop bet bigger for value. They're not paying attention to your bet sizing. With 2 pair or better, you're trying to get it all in (unless the board is a 4 flush, etc).

Opponent and board are important in your decisions. Keep posting hands for feedback, and not necessarily ones you lost, or ones with big pots, but ones where you weren't sure your action was correct.
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Author Topic: 2NL @ Prodigy(Read 462 times)
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« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2011, 04:02:42 PM »

^^^^ Thank You for taking the time to write this DfD ^^^^

Let me digest it and put your recommendations into practice.

I will post further details on the results.

It makes sense though. Thinking back I realize I need to slow down some both pre flop and on the flop.
I'll stop there for now and work out more ways to include your comments into my play.  
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« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2011, 04:05:08 PM »

You to Fletch,Thx
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Author Topic: 2NL @ Prodigy(Read 462 times)
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« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2011, 07:38:38 AM »

Small hand small pot, big hand big pot. You need to bet/raise just enough to do the job. If you're getting lots of callers, then raise a bit smaller with AK type hands but bigger with AA & KK. You need to be aware of the board and how that might have helped your opponent. Don't C Bet with AK when you miss and have 3 callers. You're not going to get them all to fold. If you're HU you can bluff for 1/2 pot knowing that they'll fold with nothing and call if they have you beat. When you actually hit the flop bet bigger for value. They're not paying attention to your bet sizing. With 2 pair or better, you're trying to get it all in (unless the board is a 4 flush, etc). Opponent and board are important in your decisions.

Nicely articulated brilliance.




^^^^ Thank You for taking the time to write this DfD ^^^^

Let me digest it and put your recommendations into practice.

I will post further details on the results.

It makes sense though. Thinking back I realize I need to slow down some both pre flop and on the flop.
I'll stop there for now and work out more ways to include your comments into my play.  
hope it helps, twospd. It helped me last night, bought in $80 @ live $1/2, there was another apparent-LAGtard (with >800 in front of him) and I walked out with $530 in about 90 minutes. Raising preflop small VERY often, and yet somehow they almost never 3-bet me (and often folded after limping before me -- at least the obviously-tight opponents did Wink ) and I just kept c-betting about 25%-30% of pot even when 5handed, again they usually just called ("slow playing" lol) or else folded, rarely did they re-pop. If they DID re-pop it was a min-raise so I could draw super-cheap and YAY a few gutshots and backdoor flushes when they thought I was pushing my apparent unpaired-high-cards starter (due to my PFR with 96s etc. mwahahahahaha) = getting opponent's stack ez game  


But don't forget to take Fletch advice above -- when you get 99+ you can't raise to just $7 or $8, now raise to like $20+ and you will only get called by the unobservant players who think that YET AGAIN you are building a pot with a bull$hit hand. Hope you flop a set (like I did last night, 99 on AK9 board no I am not kidding ^_^ ) and enjoy getting paid off by AT (yes, that's what villain committed his stack with on that flop).
« Last Edit: September 22, 2011, 07:40:51 AM by DforDissent » Logged


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Author Topic: 2NL @ Prodigy(Read 462 times)
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« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2011, 10:40:22 AM »



2nl

I seem to still be struggling with my aggression.

I am only playing one table at a time here now. It seems I am able to focus more. (of course)

Does anyone know how to clean the tables up? They are more cluttered than I would like.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2011, 10:46:55 AM by twospd » Logged
Author Topic: 2NL @ Prodigy(Read 462 times)
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« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2011, 04:40:19 PM »

Everleaf $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em - 7 players - View hand 1455861
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

BB: $0.76
UTG: $0.56
UTG+1: $0.42
Hero (MP): $5.30
CO: $1.43
BTN: $2.59
SB: $2.46

Pre Flop: ($0.03) Hero is MP with A K
2 folds, Hero raises to $0.06, 1 fold, BTN calls $0.06, SB calls $0.05, BB calls $0.04

Flop: ($0.24) 5 8 T (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, BTN bets $0.24, SB folds, BB folds, Hero folds



I know this is vague but what would any of you have put this player on?
How should I have played this?
This is a move I see over and over.
In my above post you you can see I still have PT set up as it "came out of the box"
Am I wrong to believe that most of the players here have there HUD set up to show my fold % to a ? whatever it is called.  What is it called?
« Last Edit: September 22, 2011, 04:46:14 PM by twospd » Logged
Author Topic: 2NL @ Prodigy(Read 462 times)
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« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2011, 05:28:22 PM »

I know this is vague but what would any of you have put this player on?
How should I have played this?
This is a move I see over and over.
In my above post you you can see I still have PT set up as it "came out of the box"
Am I wrong to believe that most of the players here have there HUD set up to show my fold % to a ? whatever it is called.  What is it called?
You're against 4 players so folding to a pot bet from any of them is fine. Someone certainly has you beat and only 1 card at a time comes out now. It cost you 6 cents/3BB to see 3 community cards. You don't want to be paying 24 cents/12BB to see one when you have Ace high. On to the next hand.

You are wrong to believe that most players are using a HUD at 2nl. I certainly wouldn't be worried about being your image. People aren't trying to outplay you, so don't be worried that they're betting here with AQ and you're folding the best hand. It's just not happening anywhere near often enough to be a factor. If they're betting, it's because they have something and you're beat. Play AK exactly the same next time, and you'll flop TPTK soon enough and stack someone with AJ.

And it's probably a Fold to CBet, even though they didn't start the action.
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Author Topic: 2NL @ Prodigy(Read 462 times)
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« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2011, 06:35:47 PM »

Prob over thinking this.
And yes I would think how I played it is appropriate.
But.....This happens soooooo often. It makes the game so transparent....also it was a short session but I had just caught one of those nasty Italians Grin trying to do this to me out of the sb..they cold/flatted and immediately began donking into me...I wanted to see what was up so I did play back at them OTF...they slowed down...I bet 33% on turn...they call...I check SD and sure enough they had air.  QJo...WTF? i thought

Anyways here I immediately think set...then 99+...then open ended...then Huh? air???
the darn pot sized bet is either a strong bluff...(those darn Italian's love to play position this way you know) or...?

It seems to me that 2nl is playing like a limit game with everyone having "over" chips in front of them...think that is what it is called when a limit game is also a No Limit game for the players that have chosen to do it?

Don't get me started about 10NL...those *$%&%%(%^(^&%  are some TOUGH regs there...they just will not pay off and I don't know enough about bet sizing to lead them down the wrong road...books should be here any day now and maybe they will help me some.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2011, 06:38:30 PM by twospd » Logged
Author Topic: 2NL @ Prodigy(Read 462 times)
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« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2011, 07:31:29 PM »

The pot size bet is usually due to the fact that is the easiest option for them to select. It takes time to use the slider or type in a number, so pot betting is the default at 2nl. Don't read too much into it hand strength wise. But what it means is you're only getting 2 to 1 odds to call and it's not a bluff that often. At 2nl you're calling to see flops and getting it in when you hit. And folding when you don't. Do not over think it.
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Author Topic: 2NL @ Prodigy(Read 462 times)
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« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2011, 04:45:00 AM »

Does anyone know how to clean the tables up? They are more cluttered than I would like.

Oh, and I forgot to say There's a clean skin for Prodigy in the post at http://www.sixandfourum.com/fourum-poker-games-and-freerolls/prodigy-poker-games/msg18354/#msg18354

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