Ok, a little background:
Prior to BF I only played LIMIT Holdem...since BF I have been forced to begin playing NL due to the decreased online traffic.
I understand pot odds in limit flawlessly but can't get my mind around it playing NL.

I have goggled 4 info. a few times but just can't relate it to NL so I thought I would pose my question directly .

I am going to keep it as simple as possible so as not to confuse myself.

Let's pick a hand...any hand...for this one let's say we are open ended

8 0uts....POT NEEDS TO BE LAYING 5:1............................17% turn.....17% river....or 31% combined more or less

In limit that is real easy...micros .25/.50 LHE....pot raised PF and with open end there is always odds to chase....now remember I am only talking POT ODDS...no implied...no raise for free card...no semi bluff...no raise for value of draw...blah blah blah

But what is throwing me in NL is I never see correct odds for calling/chasing....it is as if who ever can be most aggressive wins...

I am only playing .05/.10 NL (another question: what would that be called?)

What I am trying to say..... lets say pot was raised that standard bull sht 3bb pre...I flat Lp (blinds fold) and see the open ender.....now there is .75cents in pot.... PF raiser bets .50 cents post flop...that's 2/3 of pot and yet there is now only, with that bet, $1.25 in the pot....it is costing .50cents to call or damn near half the pot....that is getting up there around needing a flush and an open ended draw...not exactly but you see what I mean....

What am I missing?...do I need to look at stack sizes?....something else?...I am just confused as to what I am missing....something that should be so simple is just frustrating the piss out of me.

Don't get me wrong I am doing alright in NL....(as has been posted before, in limit ppl make 1 or 2 bb mistakes but in NL I can get there whole stack)  I would just like for someone to explain the correct thinking in NL when it comes to pot odds...it seems anyone can make anyone else fold with a large enough bet in NL....unless they want to gamble

and while I am at it ONE more question:  what exactly is a bb in NL?...in LIMIT it is the same as the turn or river bet (.05/.10LHE...bb=.10) but in NL when I look at PT3 and my bb/100 it seems to be twice what I am used to calling a bb or at the .05/.10NL stakes it would be .20 cents = a bb?...is this correct?

At this point I would imagine a few of you are salivating wanting to get on a table with me.

Any constructive help would be enormously welcomed....thx


This is much to long a post    

Hopefully someone will give a more in-depth/better answer, but here's the quick answers I can give you.

RE: naming of limits, it can be by the small/big blind size as you have listed it (.5/.10), or by the 100 bb buyin in dollars (in this case 10NL)  The latter seems to be more used in online discussions.



The bets in relation to the pot are generally going to be a lot higher than you're used to.  You alluded to the answer yourself; you have to take stack sizes as well as your opponent's probable hand range into account.  While in LHE the pot is capped by the amount of remaining possible bets, in NLHE the limit is the shortest stack.  But that isn't necessarily what you can expect to make; you have to take into account the expected payoff you would get from villain if you do hit.  This is where the games differ the most; in NL you have to make educated guesses at the hands your opponent may hold and how much and how likely you can get paid off when you have the best hand.

Lets take the hand you mentioned for an example. You flop an open ender, aren't counting your pair outs, and need to call .50 to win 1.25, so 2.5:1 odds.  Normally not worthwhile.  But stacks and villain can make a difference here.  For instance, it makes a huge difference whether the effective stack (i.e. the amount of your remaining money that can go in in the hand) is (as an example) 3.00 or 5.00.  If you have $3 behind at this moment , the most you can win after calling is $2.50 of villain's money.  You're only going to win at best (and this assumes villain will always pay you off) 5:1 if you hit on the turn, and your odds of hitting OTT are almost 1 in 6.  So, unless you think you can get to the river free, this isn't equitable.  Now if the effective stacks were $2 higher, you now could win 9x, and if villain is likely to pay you off, then it's a call.

Now this was all assuming that villain was very likely to lose his stack to you every time you hit your hand.  But in NL you also have to have some sort of idea what villains likely hand range is, so that you have an idea  a.) a precise idea of what your outs are and the likelihood you are ahead or behind, b.) what you can expect to extract from him when you're ahead, and c.) whether you can take the pot away from him with a bluff when behind.  It also is useful to have an idea of villain's expected patterns or behaviors so that you can exploit flaws in his/her play (for example, a person who will bluff shove a small pair on a bad flop is worth looking up for a raise with a marginal holding).  

The math is easy enough, and some googling and a few questions on forums and such will get you those answers.  There are even calculators online and in software that can figure odds for you on a case-by-case basis.  But the nature of reading opponents and getting hand ranges takes a little more practice and the need is far more pronounced in NL than it is in LHE, which is much more simply going with the maths.  About all you can do is ask questions from people who can help and just get the experience.



In regards to the bb question:  While you're used to bb standing for "big bets" (i.e. the higher bet increment at the late streets), a bb in NL is a "big blind", or the larger forced bet to begin the hand.  At NL, big hands will have far more bb's in the pot than in LHE.  in limit, assuming you capped all the way through, you could only put in a max of 12 bb (big bets).  At NL, however, coming in full stacked usually entails 100 bb (big blinds) or more, and you could conceivably get them all in in any hand.  That is why your bb numbers at NL are much higher.   I'm no expert, but I've heard generally that 2x your BB/100 on NL vs. LHE is about right, and for that reason you should play at NL tables with about half the blind size you would at LHE to be at about the same relative profit level.

Thank You everyone for the help.

Having had only one cup of coffee this morning and needing to get to work I will post pone anymore questions until this evening.
I will say though everything I just read was spot on what I have been thinking.

1)So far my take on NL is PT3 is a much more valuable tool than in LHE.
2)PPL put blinders on with TPTK and slow play WAY to often.
3)PPL bluff their big ace with air WAY to often.
4)Lots of PPL need to tape a sign to their monitors that reads something like"ALWAYS THINK SET" 

Again Thanks to all of you.

I have never posted anything anywhere in strategy(that I can recall) but with the great responses I just read I will probably become a regular at letting you all know how little I do know about the game.

Odds in NLH are pretty hard to come by. Even pre-flop, playing a 76s to a standard 3bb raise doesn't give you great odds.

So we have to look at stack sizes and how an opponent plays post-flop to determine what hands we should be playing, both pre and post.

Say we're at a FR table, 9 players, UTG raises 3xbb. You have 76s in BTN. You're full stacked.
Don't play this hand is your opponent has less than 60bbs. We just simply won't hit enough against an overpair and we'll miss the vast majority of flops.
Also, don't play this hand if your opponent won't stack off easily. Let's say he is a 10/9 nit. He only stacks off with sets or higher. Well, if he is playing from UTG, his only realistic hands are JJ+, AQs+. And if your hand hits the flop (458r, 672) then this player won't stack off. (Obviously, a board like 77T is a different case, but that's so uncommon).
Our odds almost never are correct in NLH. So instead, this is implied odds. We have to look at what we can possibly win.

And don't underestimate the power of a semi-bluff. Say you flat on BTN with JThh against a MP pfr and the flop comes 892 with a heart. MP cbets. We don't have to just flat. We have tons of equity, but even more so if we semi-bluff raise his cbet. It's something you can't really do in limit. A hand that beats you OTF in limit won't go away to a petty raise. But they may fold an A9, lower pocket pair, higher overcards even. This makes it so that you create your own odds. And it gives you two chances to win the hand. He can fold, or you can hit. And you'll only face serious resistance against an overpair/set (essentially the same hand in this scenario), but even with an OESD and BDF possibilities.

I feel like I understand both sides of ohsnapzbrah and fletchs latest statements.

I really enjoy being called a "snake in the grass" by some of the other players.
Now remember I'm only playing 10nl, but it is pleasing to be able to keep the other opponents guessing what I am playing.They never know what I'm going to turn out.A few have began completely shutting down when I enter a pot which is forcing me to change my post flop play.I knew it could only last so long. ....
I threw this in here because those are the kind of hands (med/little suited connectors and even one and two gappers)I have been wearing them out with.



If I could ask another question?
...as fletch and sixandfour have confirmed that PT records a bb in NL as twice the big blind I am confused somewhat when as ohsnapzbrah recommends against playing 76s unless (for the reasons stated in that post) villains stack size is at least +60bb....Am I correct that we are talking about just bb's and not the PT version of a bb. Correct?.... Example:  .05/.10nl=10nl ....so at this stake a bb is .10 cents even though PT records bb/100 as two of these bb or .20 cents......as ohsnapzbrah has recommended then at this stake 60bb would be $6 bucks...

I hope this is correct. If it is not please tell me.I have MUCH to learn about nl and am a real butt head when it comes to details.

This is a more advanced technique. Because you have to know what your opponent thinks you have, whether he thinks you actually hit something, etc. I'd dabble around with it at 10nl, but you really don't need the move and probably shouldn't play this too much because you could often find yourself in sticky spots.