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Author Topic: Arnold Snyder Poker Tournament Formula 2(Read 494 times)
« on: August 22, 2011, 09:49:40 AM »

I am just re-reading this book in the past month and something went off in my head.

I read this a few years ago and completely dismissed it as garbage.  It seemed as if what he was writing did not make sense in any mathematical sense at all. 

However, now that I have more experience, it seems as his theories may make sense, even if his applications are incorrect. 

One example is a hand I commented in on 2p2 a little over a week ago about a live hand.  Basically, the player was faced with an all in bet on the flop needing 37% equity to call, but only had 33% equity with his hand versus the range of the opponent.  So mathematically this is a fold. 

However, he had 22BBs and a slightly smaller than average stack and there was almost 40 BBs in the pot.  If he calls and loses he's out.  If he folds, he has a 22 BB stack with a long way to go to the bubble and FT and most likely he will bust out.  If he calls and wins he gets the big stack at the table, 60 BBs and enough of a stack to continue playing small ball poker for almost another hour, with which he can continue accumulating chips. 

With 22 BBs, you need to be more selective and pretty soon, you are really looking for a hand to get it all PF and hoping for a double up. 

You see, it takes chips to win chips.  Just like economics, it takes money to make money.  While we are taking a a small - on cEV.  I think using utility as a guide, there are times where you will see there is more value in winning the pot than pure pot odds will indicate. 

Let's look at the above example.  I will use the Parx MTTs as an example since I play them most.  Imagine 300 players entered, and 27 cash.  there 3M chips in play. About 1/2 way through the field you have an average stack of about 20BBs (about 20k with 500/1000/100 blinds).  With that stack, you are about 80% to bustout with all things being equal and only about 6% to make the FT.  If you take a small - at that point for a 60 BBs stack or bust out, winning the 60 BBs stack increases you chances to cash to win are now 2% (about 0.7% before the hand), your chances to make the FT are now about 18% and your chances of cashing are almost 60% now.

But that doesn't take into account the additional pots and chips that are yours to win now because almost every one else is nursing a a small stack. 

So all in all, if anyone has read this book and dismissed it, I would urge you to look at it again.  And any who hasn't take a look at the book.  The theory of utility is worth the read.  However, when reading, be careful and use your own judgment as to how to proceed.  I'm not sold that his applications are the best way to apply the theory. 
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Author Topic: Arnold Snyder Poker Tournament Formula 2(Read 494 times)
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« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2011, 02:43:43 PM »

I've never heard of this, but it sounds like an interesting and valuable concept.  I know in tourney play, I have adapted certain proactive measures to increase my odds of cashing.  While push & pray mode starts at 10 BB for most people (and rightly so), I've found that being proactive around the 15BB mark is preferable to nitting around to 10 blinds.  Around 15 BB I will start opening wide ranges to take advantage of what is usually to that point a tight image and buy time.  If I get caught betting light, I dump and am just a bit closer to P&P.  But I've found that this usually buys you valuable table rounds until a hand I can chip up on comes.  I'm also far more likely to make a squeeze play here than at any other time in a tourney, knowing that if successful I've bought myself several orbits.   

I know it's not exactly the same as the example here, but the general concept is the same; something that might be slightly -EV can in certain circumstances be preferable for a deeper tourney finish.
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Author Topic: Arnold Snyder Poker Tournament Formula 2(Read 494 times)
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2011, 03:42:34 PM »

It does in a way take into account some of the concepts he talks about.  Basically, what I am getting so far is that everyone should look at their game and start recognizing when you are getting desperate and do something to change that before you actually get desperate.  If you wait for 7 BBs to get it in and double up, you only have 14 BBs now and the next level you are all in or fold again and playing this short gives you very few options.  If however, you can amass a pile of chips then you have many more options on how to play hands.  You can play small ball while everyone else sits there waiting for the right time to shove.  And having this ability, will actually create many more chip making opportunities for you. 

So in essence (and he shows examples by Men Ngyuen (sp) and John Phan) on proper times to take more risk to build the bigger stack or bust out trying, but then he showed how after they succeeded in building the stack, they were able to dominate their tables and make very deep runs because they knew to take the risk earlier on. 

If you have a deep stack, playing small ball is best, but if you start losing the ability to play small ball, (or may lose it soon) then that is where you need to start thinking about taking a little risk to be able to continue playing small ball when it is beyond everyone else's capability, due to their chip limitation.  It sort of fits in with what I read about Erick Lindgren's philosophy. 
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Author Topic: Arnold Snyder Poker Tournament Formula 2(Read 494 times)
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2011, 11:58:55 AM »

Tried some of the ideas last night.  With mildly positive results.  Basically I lagged it up just trying to build a stack and was able to build a stack, but not with the LAG hands.  Playing LAG did however allow me to stay even or a little ahead of the curve until I got two hands in about 20 minutes time.  The first was AJ flopped TP and got two post flop bets out of my opponent before he folded the river and another hand where I limped behind on the button on a JJ7 board I bet after it checked to me and got two callers, I shut down on the turn with another 7 and my hand completely worthless now and checked behind and with a 4 on the river the BB lead out and I raised and he called.  Now I had a monster stack compared to the field.  About 50 BBs where the average was around 15 BBs. 

However, this really big stack feeling (I'm not really used to having this many chips being a reformed superNIT) did end shortly as I was card dead for the next two orbits (which equaled one round each) I bluffed after one pot in LP preflop and on the flop in LP, but had to give it up on the turn.  After two blind increases now my monster stack is only about 25 BBs and my extra ability is disappearing.  I raised a pot 2.2 BBs in LP with A4s get called by the SB and BB.  SB donk bets a KQ2r flop.    He has a decent sized stack too.  I felt trying to take the pot away from him now would cost 1/3 of my chips if I am wrong so I had to give that one up.  go through the blinds, level increases again, I'm below 20 BBs and looking for a hand to re-raise shove and we are nearing the bubble and I'm in about the same position as normal, short or near short on the bubble.  I was able to steal a few pots preflop and had one double up. from here. 

All in all I final tabled and finished in 6th for a small profit.  As a conclusion to the riskier play, I am unsure at this point.  In the live MTTs with 20 minutes levels, even building a big stack is not enough to coast to the final table.  I was still approaching the bubble with a less than optimal stack to make plays without risking too much if I am wrong.  I still needed to shove at the right times to get past the bubble.  And I did not have a large enough stack to "abuse" the bubble optimally.  That was my goal: to have 30+ BBs at the bubble to play small ball and try to pick up a lot of pots on the bubble.  Instead, I was nursing about 10BB at the bubble.  I was ahead of most of the table, but when i have 10BBs to their 5 to 7 BBs that's not enough to make a big difference. 
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Author Topic: Arnold Snyder Poker Tournament Formula 2(Read 494 times)
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« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2011, 12:47:53 PM »

I think the fundamental problem with the strategy suggested in this book is that it is possible to be a big stack and at the same time to have a small effective stack - because your opponents don't have the depth to go along with you.  If you have 60 BBs and start opening quite often, and most of your opponents only have 20 to 25, you should run into frequent all in 3-bets.  You are making it easy for them to get all their chips in and either pick up the blinds, antes, and your opening raise without a fight, or to double up with what is probably a race.  "Small ball" requires your opponents to be deep enough so that a 3-bet by them is risky since you can 4-bet.

There are probably spots in an MTT where a big stack is worth slightly more than it's ICM value suggests because you can really let fly and steal a ton of blinds.  But for the most part, I would expect to find most of them at bubble time.  In my experience, live tournaments are not always structured nicely in the middle - I often see big jumps in the blinds that result in tables where almost every player is in survival mode even though they seemed to be comfortable a level before.
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Author Topic: Arnold Snyder Poker Tournament Formula 2(Read 494 times)
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2011, 05:46:27 PM »

So far in the tournaments I've been able to amass a big stack, I have seen the same problems.  You can amass stacks, but in a couple levels with 20 minute blinds, you cannot sustain the large stack without continuing to take risks.  You can use small ball and be willing to r/f at times where I wouldn't typically r/f if I was the short one, but If you try stealing with 2.2 BBs and get shoved on, I just fold and move on.  You do pick up more  chips this way, but with the blinds going up so quickly, it is hard to stay ahead of the blinds with small thefts.  You still need to pick up a large pot every couple orbits to keep the huge stack.  As the book is intended for 1 hour or longer levels, it makes sense that it doesn't work well in lower buy ins. 

However, at times, I was able to use small ball to pick up pots while other players were waiting for the right hand to go all in with.  I was decently picking up some blinds and antes.  I had over 35 - 40 range while the rest of the table was around 20.  But then again, this suddenly changes when I picked up AQ and get it all in preflop on a flip and lose the flip.  But if you win, you picked up 3 levels of lower stress poker. 

I just ordered Jonathan Little's book.  I'll be interested to see how it differs. 
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Author Topic: Arnold Snyder Poker Tournament Formula 2(Read 494 times)
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2011, 01:03:08 PM »

I forgot to add one benefit of having a 60 BB stack while everyone is 20 BBs or less is that we have the luxury of patience for the time being if the table is 3b shoving too often to make stealing viable.  We can wait for the right hands/situations to raise and not have our stack terribly depleted by having to fold a whole orbit or two. 
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