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Topic: On the bubble in $1 x 45 man  (Read 397 times) More Search
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Author Topic: On the bubble in $1 x 45 man(Read 397 times)
profilFletch_smf
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« on: August 24, 2010, 05:26:00 PM »

So I'm going to start branching out from cash games, and I don't have the time for big MTT's so 45's seemed a good compromise. Line check, please.

Poker Stars $1.00+$0.20 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t300/t600 Blinds + t50 - 8 players - View hand 886076
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

SB: t4757       M = 3.66
BB: t6600       M = 5.08
Hero (UTG): t16822       M = 12.94
UTG+1: t7672       M = 5.90
MP1: t5670       M = 4.36
MP2: t2551       M = 1.96
CO: t20498       M = 15.77 - 47/8 (80)
BTN: t2930       M = 2.25

Pre Flop: (t1300) Hero is UTG with Q K
Hero raises to t1200, 3 folds, CO calls t1200, 3 folds

Flop: (t3700) 9 7 2 (2 players)
Hero bets t1900, CO calls t1900

Turn: (t7500) Q (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets t9000, Hero raises to t13672 all in
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Author Topic: On the bubble in $1 x 45 man(Read 397 times)
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2010, 06:15:00 PM »

You are in the wrong position here.  Check the flop and see how it goes.  He truly may have the flush.  Don't invest any more than you have after missing the flop.  The queen on the turn is really not worth the price since you don't actually have a way to improve on the river with any card that can beat a flush.  You can call and hope he has air, but I say fold.  Live to fight another hand.  X
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IF LIFE THROWS YOU LEMONS, ADD SALT AND TEQUILA.  X
Author Topic: On the bubble in $1 x 45 man(Read 397 times)
profilsixandfour
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« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2010, 09:17:14 PM »

I don't mind the c-bet, but it's a bit light.  Far too easy for one club hands and floaters to hang in.  As played, turn is probably fine; got any AF on villain?
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Author Topic: On the bubble in $1 x 45 man(Read 397 times)
profilFletch_smf
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« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2010, 01:20:49 AM »

I don't mind the c-bet, but it's a bit light.  Far too easy for one club hands and floaters to hang in.  As played, turn is probably fine; got any AF on villain?
I don't find that stat very useful/reliable, so no, didn't have it available.

Regarding the hands with a club, I don't think anything will get them to fold on the flop, so the C Bet is to take it down the 50% of the time he doesn't have one.
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Author Topic: On the bubble in $1 x 45 man(Read 397 times)
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2010, 07:04:25 AM »

At this stage of the tournament I would check that flop and see what develops.

On the turn you have committed all your chips with absolutely no idea where you are in the hand.  Not a good spot IMO.



Kash
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Author Topic: On the bubble in $1 x 45 man(Read 397 times)
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2010, 07:17:16 PM »

At this stage of the tournament I would check that flop and see what develops.

On the turn you have committed all your chips with absolutely no idea where you are in the hand.  Not a good spot IMO.



Kash

+1 for checking the flop--you have a lot of chips, better off trying to muscle the smaller stacks, unless your reasoning was he had enough chips to fold.  I think you should explain your thinking.
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Author Topic: On the bubble in $1 x 45 man(Read 397 times)
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« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2010, 04:56:57 PM »

My thinking was C-Bet/bluff at the point to take it down when he's not holding a club, slightly more than 50% of the time. After that I was done with the hand ... except I hit on the turn. Then my thinking was check to make it obvious I was bluffing on the flop to try and extract some value from hands that might try to take it away from me.
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Author Topic: On the bubble in $1 x 45 man(Read 397 times)
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2010, 04:57:05 PM »

45 turbos are a different beast, especially at this buy-in level, you really need to play this different then you would play a $6.50 or a $12.00 turbo etc..

People do not have fold buttons at this level. I don't mind a raise here to try to take the blinds, but to
be honest you are better off folding this hand in this game at this level with your chip stack.

Everyone at your table except you and the chip leader have 12bb or less, so they are in shove mode. You are much better off folding this pre and saving your chips.

As played, I think a check or cbet is fine. At this level though,  they will call you with ace high here lol no clubs, so if you have the disipline to check fold, it is the best line in a $1-3 turbo, because a cbet is not going to take this down 98% of the time. A cbet is fine in the $6.50 and up imo, but one of the 45 man pros on PTP recommends checking the flop in these even with ak when you miss the flop to conserve chips.

And you are up against the chip leader here, you want to stay away from playing pots with the chipleader
unless you are a clear favorite.

I don't mind that you got your chips in here when your queen hits, because of how wide
people play at this level.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2010, 05:06:32 PM by Starling Money » Logged

Author Topic: On the bubble in $1 x 45 man(Read 397 times)
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2010, 05:22:00 PM »

Regarding my last comment, I think my play would depend on the reads you had on chip leader. Pretty hard to fold when the queen hits knowing how aggressive people are in these.
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Author Topic: On the bubble in $1 x 45 man(Read 397 times)
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« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2010, 08:12:22 PM »

45 turbos are a different beast, especially at this buy-in level, you really need to play this different then you would play a $6.50 or a $12.00 turbo etc..

People do not have fold buttons at this level. I don't mind a raise here to try to take the blinds, but to
be honest you are better off folding this hand in this game at this level with your chip stack.

Everyone at your table except you and the chip leader have 12bb or less, so they are in shove mode. You are much better off folding this pre and saving your chips.

As played, I think a check or cbet is fine. At this level though,  they will call you with ace high here lol no clubs, so if you have the disipline to check fold, it is the best line in a $1-3 turbo, because a cbet is not going to take this down 98% of the time. A cbet is fine in the $6.50 and up imo, but one of the 45 man pros on PTP recommends checking the flop in these even with ak when you miss the flop to conserve chips.

And you are up against the chip leader here, you want to stay away from playing pots with the chipleader
unless you are a clear favorite.

I don't mind that you got your chips in here when your queen hits, because of how wide
people play at this level.

You said Turbo a few times ... this was not a turbo.

My read on villain was that if he whiffed he'd fold to the C Bet, but if he had anything he would continue. The overbet on the turn was what confused me. I wasn't expecting bigger than pot bet from him if he was trying to take it from me after I feigned weakness. And it came down to do I want to get it all in here with just top pair?
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Author Topic: On the bubble in $1 x 45 man(Read 397 times)
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2010, 12:25:02 AM »

45 turbos are a different beast, especially at this buy-in level, you really need to play this different then you would play a $6.50 or a $12.00 turbo etc..

People do not have fold buttons at this level. I don't mind a raise here to try to take the blinds, but to
be honest you are better off folding this hand in this game at this level with your chip stack.

Everyone at your table except you and the chip leader have 12bb or less, so they are in shove mode. You are much better off folding this pre and saving your chips.

As played, I think a check or cbet is fine. At this level though,  they will call you with ace high here lol no clubs, so if you have the disipline to check fold, it is the best line in a $1-3 turbo, because a cbet is not going to take this down 98% of the time. A cbet is fine in the $6.50 and up imo, but one of the 45 man pros on PTP recommends checking the flop in these even with ak when you miss the flop to conserve chips.

And you are up against the chip leader here, you want to stay away from playing pots with the chipleader
unless you are a clear favorite.

I don't mind that you got your chips in here when your queen hits, because of how wide
people play at this level.

You said Turbo a few times ... this was not a turbo.

My read on villain was that if he whiffed he'd fold to the C Bet, but if he had anything he would continue. The overbet on the turn was what confused me. I wasn't expecting bigger than pot bet from him if he was trying to take it from me after I feigned weakness. And it came down to do I want to get it all in here with just top pair?

Sorry I thought it was a turbo, the strat is the same nonetheless at this stage of the game.

Hmmm, the over bet at this level is usually a bluff, but you never know, a thinking player will do this with the nuts to try to make you think he is bluffing so you will call, I would be surprised if that is what happened here.

I think most of the time he is trying to get you to fold with this bet. People really don't know how to bet at
this level, which makes it harder to get reads from their bet sizing.

I would imagine cash games would be more plus ev then these, why the change? And out of curiosity, how many tables are you playing?
« Last Edit: September 15, 2010, 12:32:39 AM by Starling Money » Logged

Author Topic: On the bubble in $1 x 45 man(Read 397 times)
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2010, 12:45:04 AM »

Are these the 45's with the 10 minute blinds?

The strat is not much different ftr, with the turbos you only have
a 15 second time bank, so you have to make your decisions much faster, and you have to start shoving
sooner obviously since the blinds increase every 5 minutes. The 10 minute blind 45 mans have a 60 second
time bank, so you have more time to make decisions etc..

Other then these factors, player ranges, and play are pretty much the same in both generally speaking.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2010, 12:48:14 AM by Starling Money » Logged

Author Topic: On the bubble in $1 x 45 man(Read 397 times)
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« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2010, 06:13:41 AM »

KQ is an easy fold UTG with a sizable stack that you had at that point. imo

Anybody acting after you with an A could re-raise and then it would be a Fold as well.

After making continuation bet after flop and Villain calls. Checking Turn would be wise. Villain has called all the way and may have a set or K's or even A's+ Flush possiblities which have you beat. After Villain pushes, I would Fold and live to play another hand.
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Author Topic: On the bubble in $1 x 45 man(Read 397 times)
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« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2010, 06:25:49 PM »

I would imagine cash games would be more plus ev then these, why the change? And out of curiosity, how many tables are you playing?
To help keep it fresh, and to get some Tourny experience without actually playing tournies.

Are these the 45's with the 10 minute blinds?
Yes ma'am.

Thanks for all the comments everyone. It really seems that this should have been a fold pre.
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Author Topic: On the bubble in $1 x 45 man(Read 397 times)
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2010, 11:23:09 AM »

Yeah that makes sense you want to keep things fresh, I would get into cash games myself if I was rolled for them.

So what was the result?   
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Author Topic: On the bubble in $1 x 45 man(Read 397 times)
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2010, 11:26:48 AM »

Wishing I was on a horse LOL     
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Author Topic: On the bubble in $1 x 45 man(Read 397 times)
« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2010, 03:40:25 PM »

Fletch, as crap as I undoubtedly am at the pokerz, my observation of the hand is simply this.

There are 8 players left.  6 of those are short stacks who you have covered many times over.  I'd be happy to get it all in with any of those 6 with virtually ATCs.   The 1 player whose stack can hurt you is not worth fighting with UTG.  No need to risk your tourny position.   Just nibble off the short stacks.

Putting it into a different perspective.   If you never fight the big stack and instead peg off the short stacks, how many times will you finish in the top 3 with the other big stack?    If you do fight the big stack before ousting the short stacks, how many times then do you expect to finish in the top 3?

IMO you will finish top 3 far more times avoiding fights with the big stack than if you try to take him down.
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Author Topic: On the bubble in $1 x 45 man(Read 397 times)
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« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2010, 07:53:47 PM »

Fletch, as crap as I undoubtedly am at the pokerz, my observation of the hand is simply this.

There are 8 players left.  6 of those are short stacks who you have covered many times over.  I'd be happy to get it all in with any of those 6 with virtually ATCs.   The 1 player whose stack can hurt you is not worth fighting with UTG.  No need to risk your tourny position.   Just nibble off the short stacks.

Putting it into a different perspective.   If you never fight the big stack and instead peg off the short stacks, how many times will you finish in the top 3 with the other big stack?    If you do fight the big stack before ousting the short stacks, how many times then do you expect to finish in the top 3?

IMO you will finish top 3 far more times avoiding fights with the big stack than if you try to take him down.
You are absolutely right. I of course don't know he's calling when I open. And I don't know he's calling when I bluff the flop. I also don't know I'm going to hit the Turn and be so bad that I can't fold it.

I also don't know that he has AQ with the A

I suck so bad.

Also, cashing in this would have gotten me immunity in the last MASS challenge, so it really, really stings. 
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Author Topic: On the bubble in $1 x 45 man(Read 397 times)
« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2010, 08:34:38 PM »

Bahaha, that is from MASS challenge? Don't feel bad, obviously I did not cash in any of mine either.
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Author Topic: On the bubble in $1 x 45 man(Read 397 times)
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« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2010, 09:36:07 PM »

It's in the back of mind ... "I've got to go deep to try and get a big cash to have a chance at winning this challenge, cause you're such a beast at this format and I never play it. Double up here and I have a chance of winning instead of just min cashing."

It cracked me up that none of us ended up cashing in the first 2 games.
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Author Topic: On the bubble in $1 x 45 man(Read 397 times)
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« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2010, 10:07:16 PM »

Also, cashing in this would have gotten me immunity in the last MASS challenge, so it really, really stings. 

I just wanna say how proud I am that we've assimilated Fletch to the point that he's employing smiley strings into his posts...
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Author Topic: On the bubble in $1 x 45 man(Read 397 times)
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« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2010, 03:37:48 AM »

Also, cashing in this would have gotten me immunity in the last MASS challenge, so it really, really stings. 

I just wanna say how proud I am that we've assimilated Fletch to the point that he's employing smiley strings into his posts...
I've really got to make a concerted effort to do it ... but I'm trying. 
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Author Topic: On the bubble in $1 x 45 man(Read 397 times)
« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2010, 06:27:23 AM »

Also, cashing in this would have gotten me immunity in the last MASS challenge, so it really, really stings. 

I just wanna say how proud I am that we've assimilated Fletch to the point that he's employing smiley strings into his posts...
I've really got to make a concerted effort to do it ... but I'm trying. 

Nice job!!!  Kiss
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